This formula can be used as a replacer for dianthine base in any vintage formula or as a base for your own work. It is potentially IFRA compliant depending on how much you use as it has no banned ingredients in it (only restricted in quantity). I only use the highest quality naturals from suppliers like John Steele, Robertet, etc. and wherever possible I use naturally extracted versions of perfumery chemicals. You could make a much cheaper version of this...
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Most impressive work sir. As always, your sharing the formula is generous and appreciated.
You’re most welcome 🙂 I love sharing what I am learning – it is good for everyone because the feedback is very helpful to me too.
Naturally extracted Heliotropin, really?
and exactly how is that possible, from what is it extracted from?
Actually I am not sure what it is extracted from, but it is most definitely a natural and is sold separately from piperonal. This is where you can get it: http://www.vigon.com/heliotropinenatural.aspx It has the same CAS number as piperonal as it is obviously the same chemical albeit extracted in a natural way from something. The synthetic they sell is ex sassafras and piperonal (they have 3 heliotropin products). I reviewed all three and found the natural to be softer and more elegant overall. Piperonal came a very close second and heliotropin ex sassafras significantly lower (far more chemical odor that… Read more »
I thank you eternally, for sharing your recreation of this lost gem.
Such a noble and rare gesture!
You are most welcome!
I found your site today and the info you provide is great! I’ve been studying perfumery for a few years now but the more I study it the more I realize how complex it can be. It now makes perfect sense that in the past you had to work under a master perfumer for 10 year before you could consider yourself a master perfumer. I appreciate your knowledge and formulas and I hope this is something you will continue sharing. Thanks! PS: I’ve been playing around with an oriental formula with lots of benzyl salicylate, ylang, and eugenol so this… Read more »
This is certainly a beginners question, but what do your numerical measures represent? Grams? Ppm? Do you dilute all your materials to a standard concentration like 10%? I’m thinking I should have started doing this ages ago…
They are grams adding up to 1kg. I don’t dilute unless the material is something I would always use in diluted form – such as corps racine or dupical for example. If I include a diluted ingredient in any of my formulas I specify the dilution in the item. Ps sorry it took so long to reply to this!
Para-Cresyl Caprylate, that’s the only ingrediënt I couldn’t find unfortunately.
Is there anything similar? Or should I add something to methyl Diantilis that I have?
Thank you very much for sharing this formula.
It’s also called para cresyl octanoate and it is a really useful chemical. That aside, I’d suggest trying a lesser quantity of something like para cresyl acetate. The acetate has more top note impact than the caprylate which is why I suggest using a little less of it. If you want to try for something more modern (and maybe even better!) you could experiment with cyclopidene which fits the profile of a cresylic/ylang note very well. I would definitely include cyclopidene in my starting kit if I was making a new carnation from scratch with a focus on newer ingredients.
I used para cresyl acetate instead of the caprylate (half the amount) and it worked out really good in my opinion
Ah thanks Florian, good to know!
I have ordered para cresyl phenyl acetate, also wanted para cresyl acetate but I forgot to add it so that really sucks, I tried Pellwall but unfortunately they haven’t got it, maybe Liaison Carbon.
I got mine Here https://shop.hexapus.nl/p-1a/?_globalsearch=Cresyl
That’s great thank you very much Florian, how silly of my not to check Hexapus in the first place…!
Surely Chris at PellWall can secure stuff for you that isn’t listed – he makes his own perfumes so I bet he can. He’s been a good supplier to me in the past for some odd things.
That is some good advice, thank you! Now that I know to order the para cresyl acetate at Hexapus, it could be interesting for other things I am still looking for.
Thank you very much for your help, I’ve ordered a lot of chemicals yesterday but forgot to add the para cresyl acetate, but I have ordered para cresyl Phenyl acetate…could I use that? If I knew about cyclopidene I certainly would have added that to my shopping card at Perfumer apprentice. Next time I’ll order cyclopidene for sure..
Yeah you could use the para cresyl phenyl acetate – it is a touch more rosey and honey but it is definitely a chem that would suit a carnation base. You’d better play around with quantities but it won’t be far off the quantity of para cresyl acetate (less, as I mentioned, than the caprylate/octanoate).
I’ve received an email from Rebekka of Liaison Carbon, and she’s putting in a bottle of cyclopidene 1% with my order for me isn’t that great news!!!
Jamie: how much of the 1 % concentration of cyclopidene is should use?
I would start at 10 (as in 10g to the 1kg) – it is more toppy than octanoate and will give a slightly different effect so trial and error will be needed. It is powerful but not crazily so – I use it at full strength in some cases but usually at 10%.
Thank you, so you mean I should start of with the 1% concentration at 10?
I would start there yeah.
Today I got a reply from Sigma/Merck about my order of Piperonal… I am not allowed to buy this without a license… I should have know better that this is a illegal chemical… that really is a bummer.
Jamie is there any substitute for Heliotropine ? Maybe Heliotropex? Thanks in advance.
I would suggest you check your own country’s laws – piperonal is restricted in my country but only if you have no legit reason to buy. I buy it by the KG with no problems at all. You may just need another supplier – it’s up to you to know your own laws not Sigma/Merck :). I have never tried any Heliotropin replacers as I just use the real stuff.
Thank you for your reply, I think I will experiment with Heliotropex N and Veratraldehyde to see what effect they have, preparing two small batches.
Im using Heliotropex N by IFF, havnt got real Heliotropin so i cant compare it.
The only thing i dont really know is how to use it as a replacer.
Perfumers Apprentice says you use it at 15% as a replacer and Hexapus says u can use it undiluted as a replacer
I have absolutely no knowledge to impart on that product I’m afraid. You may have to rely on your nose alone with this one. I am including a sample of dianthine in my small parcel to you so you can test with that perhaps.
Okay i will try my best to figure it Out because getting piperonal is allmost Impossible to get in Germany.
Or as Chris Bartlett from PellWall Said, He uses veratraldehyde as a Direct replacer for heliotropin
Jamie, I would like to hear your opinion, which is important to me. Is it possible to replace rose essential oil with rose absolute in this base?
To be honest I wouldn’t do that – if you want to replace rose oil with absolute you’d need to add something sharp to brighten the absolute – perhaps a bit of geraniol, or even more ideally rhodinol ex geranium bourbon.
Dear Jamie, thank you very much ! one question – what is dilution for Orris Resinoid? and better alc or ?
No dilution – pure. You may need to heat it slightly to get it sufficiently liquid to add though.
Jamie, I have Orris Butter tincture @ 20%, could I use that but bump it up 5 times to equal the amount of the Orris resin?
I would omit it entirely if you don’t have orris resin. The resin is a very distinct scent and is quite different from the butter.
Hi Jamie, this is an old post, fingers crossed that you will see this. I have a question about replacing Para cresyl caprylate with para cresyl acetate. I don’t have the caprylate and it is not easily obtainable. I know the acetate affects more of the top and dissipates faster than the caprylate, the caprylate lasts much longer and goes into the base. Is it possible to add a trace of musk to the acetate to pull it into the base? This would be for the Appel Muguet 10A, B, and C Accords. On a second note, would you have… Read more »
Hey Daniel, Para cresyl octanoate is very top-note mild – para cresyl acetate is definitely not going to be a good substitute at the same dose but your idea is a very shrewd one and could well work. I think you’d want to start at least at a 1:4 ratio of PCA to Galaxolide or similar non-invasive musk. I have the original coroliane but it is not shareable unfortunately. Muguet 16 I don’t have and Givaudan has discontinued it (due to IFRA I believe). If you know someone there you might convince them to send you a small sample of… Read more »